Voice Actor: This is the Mark Struczewski podcast.

Mark Struczewski: She is an investor, entrepreneur, and founder and CEO of The Virtual Hub, a business she started by accident that exploded in its first 12 months to become one of the leading companies that recruits, trains, and manages virtual assistants in the digital marketing and social media space for businesses who need to free up time and energy so they can go to the next level. Barbara Turley, welcome to the show.

Barbara Turley: Thanks so much for having me, Mark.

Mark Struczewski: I am so excited to talk to you, and I’ll tell you why. You have been a world traveler, and she’s actually in the French Alps right now, but she’s not French. She actually was born in Scotland, went to Australia, then she married a guy from Hungary, and she settled in the French Alps because it’s kind of like, I guess you told me, equal distance between Scotland and Hungary. So I think the world traveler Barbara is fascinating to have on the show today.

Barbara Turley: Oh yeah, except there’s only one problem. I’m not actually from Scotland—I’m from Ireland, which is close by. But we won’t hold that against you, Mark.

Mark Struczewski: Well, thank you. I always get those things confused. There is an actress, I think her name is Roma Downey, and I thought she was Irish, but I guess she’s Scottish. I love that Scottish accent, but I can’t get it on my Siri, on my phone, so I’m using the Australian accent right now. I wish they had a Scottish accent, but they don’t give it to me, and I don’t like what they did with the Irish accent. I’m kind of weird like that. I’m a nerd, but I make no apologies for that.

So the reason why I wanted you on the show today is because you want to talk about delegation. And as many of my listeners know—and if you’re a new listener, hello, welcome—I have this thing called the ODAE method, which stands for Outsource, Delegate, Automate, and Eliminate. And one of those D’s is delegation. That’s why I brought Barbara on the show today.

Because Barbara, we live in the year 2020, and we have more technology, especially automated technology, that allow us to delegate maybe to a person or to artificial intelligence or whatever the case may be. I think people are doing too much. I think people are doing things that are unnecessary—things that don’t need to be done by them anymore.

So let’s talk about delegation, because you obviously have a company that deals with that.

Barbara Turley: Yeah, and I love your ODAE method because I’m a total subscriber to that myself. I slightly mix them up in how I approach it in that, you know, for me automation comes before delegation so that we can start to—well, eliminate, I suppose, what must come first—but then automate, and whatever’s left, we start to delegate.

And I think, you know, not only are people doing way too much, especially business owners, like just doing way too much stuff, but we’re also doing an awful lot of useless stuff. So for example, the eliminate question—we’re doing a lot of processes still that are not actually giving us any return. And we’re really bad as business owners at trashing stuff and going, “That doesn’t work anymore. Let’s shorten it, make it more efficient, let’s optimize it.”

And also we’re using too many tools. So automation tools, cloud-based tools—there are so many of them—but so many businesses are cluttered with too many tools. And all of that stuff together results in kind of dumb stuff being done and a lack of return on investment. And invariably we end up blaming the people that we’ve hired, or the people we’re trying to delegate to, for that lack of return on investment often. So there’s so much to unpack there really in what I’ve just said.

Mark Struczewski: Yeah, one thing that really stuck out—and I want to make sure the listener doesn’t miss it—is that you said people are using too many tools. There are people who are not embracing technology or automation, and there are people who are using, to use your words, too many tools.

You still have to be involved, and I think that people are trying to automate things and they don’t really understand how automation works. They don’t follow through to make sure it’s actually giving the correct results. And I think there is—I’m so thankful no guest has ever said that before—that there is such a thing as using too many apps, too many tools, and your phone and your technology becomes so cluttered that you’re like, “Okay, is it working? I don’t know. I don’t even know how to check it because it’s so complicated.”

And I think there’s something to be said about using too many tools.

Barbara Turley: 100%. I mean, you know, I think one of the things people forget about automation is often—and look, I am a delegation expert. I run a company where we have people that we put into businesses to help them delegate and that sort of thing—but we’re also big automation people. We use a massive amount of automation, and we tend to attract clients that are using lots of automation as well.

But one of the things about automation is that people tend to look at what a tool can do for them, and then they go and put the tool in and they do that thing. But what you start to realize once you get more than a few tools doing some stuff for you, you start to realize that now you need to be a system architect.

So now you need to look at the business from the top down and identify what problems, on a grander scale, are we trying to solve. And then look at whether the tool that you’re choosing is solving for the business that’s in two, three, four years’ time from now—or is it just solving a band-aid problem that you have today.

And that’s why people end up with too many tools because they’re band-aiding everything up and they’re not strategically starting to think ahead about: if the business in three years’ time and my plan is X, is this thing I’m bringing in today going to solve problems that are coming up in the future?

We can’t always do that, but that’s the concept of system architecture and automation architecture as opposed to just bringing in a tool to solve a problem.

Mark Struczewski: You know, as you were talking there, the word that came up to my brain was “why.” Why are you adding this automation? Why are you adding this tool? And I think we get caught in the shiny new object syndrome—“Ooh, a new app, let me get it, let me use it.”

And to your point, we’re not thinking of the future, and we’re not thinking about do I really need this tool, or is it just a shiny new tool because it’s been written up in Success Magazine or on the internet and it gets rave reviews.

Do you need it? I mean, tell me if I’m wrong—do you think people are not stopping to think whether they really need that tool?

Barbara Turley: Yeah, I mean look, I’ll give you an example: Slack, right? The tool everyone loves is Slack—amazing online communication tool, has revolutionized many teams and businesses.

And I looked at Slack several times and thought about bringing it into our company. But the reality was that when I kept looking at it, I realized there were a number of issues for our specific business.

It was going to be an issue that once we got to a certain size—we have so many people and so many Slack messages going back and forth—we were rapidly going to get into a situation where Slack was going to become an extremely expensive tool for us and not really solve the problem we were trying to solve.

So it might work for lots of companies—and it does—but for ours it didn’t make sense. And it took months for me to get to that. That was months of analysis and looking deeply into the tool.

We calculated what it would cost in two years’ time, and it was going to explode for us. And it didn’t really make enough sense with how we currently operate. We’re also a G Suite house, so we already had tools that we weren’t utilizing effectively.

So because everyone was talking about Slack, I thought, “Do we really need this?” And in the end, it didn’t make sense for our business.

Mark Struczewski: Yes, I thank you for sharing that. That’s incredible. And it’s funny because you referenced G Suite—they just underwent another name change. Now it’s Google Workspace. It went from Google Suite to G Suite to Google Workspace.

It’s like pick a name and stick with it, okay? It keeps changing every couple of years and it gets confusing.

But it’s really interesting because there are so many apps out there. And I tell people: before you get a free app or a paid app, stop and think—do you need it?

And second, go talk to people in your network and ask, “Hey, I’m thinking about getting this app. Do you use it? What do you think about it?” Because people rush into the latest and greatest thing.

And if you only read reviews online and don’t talk to real users, you might end up frustrated. If you had just talked to people first, you might have saved yourself aggravation.

[Ad Break]

Hey there, it’s Mark, and I will coach you for less than $2 a day, plus give you access to a group coaching call every single month. For more information, visit MrProductivity.com.

Barbara Turley: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s hard to do system architecture, but I think it’s something that in this digital transformation we’re all going through—it’s moved 10 years in the space of 10 months because of COVID.

And if we’re all going to move into this space, then we need to consider things like system architecture. I’ve actually put two of my best guys into a department called system architecture, and they run across departments.

They talk to department heads, identify what problems they’re having, and what their “nirvana” looks like. And they go off and architect something using the systems we already have.

And to bring in a new system, there’s a full business case process. Why are we doing this? What problem are we solving?

The other thing people are going to have to consider is that we’re all remote now. So what does it matter if someone is in a different house, state, or country? It doesn’t.

So delegation and team structure now need to be cost-effective. You have to look at what people are actually doing with their time because you’re paying for it.

And what you’ll often find is about 30% of time is spent on easily delegatable tasks that aren’t being delegated. These days, you can delegate those offshore without reducing quality.

So delegation is not just about freeing up your time—it’s about building cost-effective, efficient systems. And I think that’s going to explode even more next year.

Mark Struczewski: Absolutely. I tell you, one of the things that really caused me a moment of pause is when my wife said, “Well, why are we doing it this way? Why don’t we do it this way?” And I’m like, “How dare you insult my process!”

But she had figured it out because she wasn’t inside the process. She said, “Why are we doing it this way?” So she actually improved the process, but I kind of took offense to that. I’m like, wait a minute, it’s my process.

But the thing is, I’ve been doing the same thing for three and a half years. She looked at it with fresh eyes and went, “Huh, this doesn’t make any sense.” And she was right. But I was kind of offended because I thought my process was perfect.

Barbara Turley: I get that. I mean, we’re all—like I said—it’s your baby, right? And we are so emotionally connected to our businesses as well. The person who owns the business, the business owner, even someone who’s just the podcast owner or whatever—it is literally something we are deeply emotionally connected to.

So we become emotional about it. The control—we’re all control freaks when it comes to this stuff. But recognizing that and saying to yourself, “I’m a control freak about it, and that’s okay because I built it. It’s my baby. It’s my thing.”

And all you want is someone to come in and learn how to do it properly and honor the fact that it’s your thing. But then, once they learn it and do it, you also need to create an environment where that person feels comfortable and safe to tell you that they think something is a dumb process, if that’s the case.

For example, let’s say you’ve got a virtual assistant in the Philippines. Clients will say to me, “They don’t give me any feedback. There’s no initiative.” And then I talk to the VA, and they’re like, “Well, I don’t really want to say anything because it feels disrespectful. I don’t want to insult them.”

So you need to actually create within your team—whether they’re in the Philippines or anywhere—you have to, and this is leading teams 101, as the owner and leader, create an environment where people feel safe and comfortable to make suggestions without being shot down, and to make mistakes.

And for it to be like, “Look, we all make mistakes. Here’s how we fix it, and here’s how we make sure it doesn’t happen again.” That’s leadership.

And that’s nothing to do with systems or processes—that’s leadership. And that’s a whole other topic around delegation. So it’s not just systems and processes; it’s leadership, team structure, and communication. There’s a lot more to it.

So that’s why delegation is difficult, but it pays the biggest dividends in business.

Mark Struczewski: And I like how you said this applies to billion-dollar companies or the single mom creating things for Etsy. So if you’re just a solopreneur thinking, “This podcast doesn’t serve me,” if you’ve been listening carefully to Barbara, it does.

Because we all need to have processes. For the longest time, when my wife worked outside the home before COVID impacted everything, I did everything myself. I was a solopreneur. I had my processes, but I still had processes.

You cannot run a business successfully without processes. You have to have them—whether you use automation, delegation, or something—otherwise it can get out of control very quickly, correct?

Barbara Turley: Absolutely. The best way I can explain this—this is the simplest way to explain it—is to go back to this idea of a billion-dollar company or a solopreneur just producing a couple of things to sell online. It doesn’t matter how big or small the business is, or whether you have plans to grow it big, or you just want to have a nice life and sell a few things online.

All businesses still have departments. You still have product creation, product delivery, marketing, sales, invoicing. You might have inventory, accounting—all this stuff that needs to be done.

So within each of those little departments, if you write those departments down, you will find that there are small, quick, process-driven, repeatable tasks. I call them the recurring tasks that need to be done daily, weekly, monthly—whatever it is—to keep the engine of that little business or large business going. It doesn’t really matter.

And then there are project lists, which are things that need to be done in order to move the business forward. And when you start to think about it in those terms, you start to realize, “Well, if I actually wrote those things down and got very clear about them, I probably could delegate.”

And you might think, “Well, my business isn’t big enough. I don’t want to.” But maybe you’d like to pick your kids up from school every day, or maybe you’d like to have a bit more free time to yourself and still have a business rather than a glorified job.

So that’s where I want people to think: delegation isn’t just for big companies. It could even be that, let’s say, you don’t want to manage staff in your business. Well, then get a cleaner and learn how to delegate properly there, so at least you free up that part of your time.

Mark Struczewski: Okay, Barbara, before we wrap up, I do this really cool thing on my podcast now called Mic Swap. What I do is I change microphones with you and allow you to be the host for one or two questions.

So this is your opportunity to ask me any question—it could be about productivity or anything else. Just don’t ask me my credit card numbers or social security numbers.

So what are one or two questions you’d like to ask me so maybe the audience gets to know me a little bit better?

Barbara Turley: Yes, okay. So I do have a question about productivity. It’s such a huge topic, and so many people talk about it and struggle with it, as we’re all still overwhelmed doing too much stuff.

What do you say to people as the first place to start to reduce overwhelm? If they’re saying, “I’m totally overwhelmed, I’m doing too much,” what’s the first thing you say?

Mark Struczewski: The first thing I say to them is you’ve got to allow yourself to breathe. Many people are doing way too much, and there’s no breathing room or white space in their schedule.

And what I want people to do is realize it’s okay to get up and walk away from your computer, from your Zoom meetings, when you’re done coaching clients. You need to get outside—even if it’s cold. Yes, I know it’s COVID. Or if you can’t go outside because you’re locked down, maybe you run around your house, do some dancing exercises, or just be silly.

Because when you’re always in a state of working—working, working, working—your brain gets tired, and you need time when you’re not working. Go watch a silly video on YouTube. Get the blood flowing. These are simple things.

Everyone comes to me expecting I’m going to tell them how to plan better or how to use some app. But what it boils down to is you’ve got to allow yourself some space to have fun and to have time where you don’t do anything. Just be silly.

That is going to help you be in a better space to be more productive.

Barbara Turley: I totally love that, because I wasn’t expecting you to say that. In the world of productivity, we’re always talking about the latest app, how to be more efficient—stuff that is quite logical, technological, very structured.

Whereas what you’re talking about is actually going away and doing what we would normally think of as unproductive in order to be more productive. Does that make sense?

Mark Struczewski: And a lot of people think it’s crazy when I tell them that. Like, “Are you serious?”

Yeah—but don’t go watch YouTube for 12 hours. I’m saying watch a video that makes you laugh, then go back to work. Just allow your brain to relax. We’re not giving our brains time to relax during the day.

Barbara Turley: Yeah. Why do you think it is that we allow ourselves so easily to go into overwhelm? It’s like we’re moths to a flame with overwhelm, especially business owners. It’s like we’re attracted to it.

Mark Struczewski: I think it’s a badge of honor that we work too many hours. We work seven days a week. We’re always working on something, and we feel guilty if we sit down with the family to watch a movie, or if we go out to dinner, or go for a walk, or have fun.

We think, “Well, I’m not a real business person. I’m not a real CEO. I’m not a real entrepreneur if I don’t work, work, work.”

So I think people really treat it like a badge of honor—like, “I’ve got to pay my dues.” It’s like a new doctor working 72-hour shifts nonstop.

I don’t want that doctor operating on me. I want the well-rested doctor. I want the trauma surgeon who is well-rested.

So I think the answer is not as complex as it seems. People think it’s a badge of honor.

Barbara Turley: I agree with you. I agree with you. Nobody ever wants to say, “I run a multimillion-dollar company and I only work an hour a day.” I even said “only,” like it’s something to be embarrassed about.

But actually, if we go back to what we’ve been talking about—automating and delegating effectively—it is entrepreneurial freedom that pays the highest dividends. But people resist it because of that mental shift you just mentioned, which is ingrained in our psyche: that we have to be doing all the time.

Mark Struczewski: So how did you like being on the other side of the interview for a couple of questions? Was it kind of fun?

Barbara Turley: I love it, yeah. I love it. I have my own podcast as well—shameless plug—the Virtual Success Show, where I’m actually the host. So I quite enjoy hosting podcasts too.

Mark Struczewski: Well, that leads to my next question—I was going to ask you where we can find out more about you. So tell us about your podcast and where we can find more about you.

Barbara Turley: Sure. My podcast is The Virtual Success Show on iTunes and Spotify. I almost said Shopify there—everyone’s shopping online these days.

That podcast is very tactical. We talk about things like, “How often should I talk to my virtual assistants?” It’s extremely practical.

It was born out of my frustration of being asked the same questions over and over again and seeing clients struggle with the same things. So I thought, “I’m just going to record this,” and it turned into a podcast.

We also have a page specifically for your listeners. If you go to thevirtualhub.com/ski, we have a mini guide: “The Five Reasons People Fail with VAs and How to Fix It.”

We also have a scalable business success formula, an e-course you can sign up for, and a link where you can book a call with one of our consultants to see if The Virtual Hub is a good fit for your business.

You can also find us on Facebook, LinkedIn, and you can connect with me personally on LinkedIn—Barbara Turley.

Mark Struczewski: Excellent. Well, listen, I am so thankful you came on the show today, played along with the Mic Swap, and shared great insights. So thank you so much for being on the show.

Barbara Turley: Thanks so much for having me.

Mark Struczewski: And just before we go, don’t forget to head on over to my website, MisterProductivity.com—M-I-S-T-E-R, MisterProductivity.com.

Find out how I can coach you for less than a dollar a day, no joke. And you can also get my top five productivity tips and so much more.

It all happens at MisterProductivity.com.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Mark Struczewski Podcast. Until we meet again, my friend, go be productive.